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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2006 03:16 - Edited by: FHteam
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More & more freeware programs, during installation, are offering to install additional material, usually browser helper objects in the form of a toolbar or a desktop search program.
Absolutely indisputable freeware programs, like Irfanview & Sun's Java, now offer to install Google Toolbar or Google Search!
Do these programs still meet Freeware Home's strict rules of freeware?
Yes - if the additional install is OPTIONAL.
NO - if the additional install is required, even if it can be uninstalled cleanly later.
The following posts were in a topic related to a program that we removed because it contained a required install of an add-on. This is what some of our visitors had to say & our responses. You are welcome to add your own comments.
UPDATE: Sept.7 2009
Many of these add-ons will trigger a warning &/or blocked download from Anti Virus/Anti Spyware programs. *Usually* these are the aggressive, commercial products from Symantec, McAfee, etc. but the free ones will also detect some add-ons.
These warnings are NOT false positives BUT they are NOT telling *you* something *we* don't know about! It is entirely your choice how you proceed, we are NOT recommending any course of action except to say that you do NOT need to report it to us ;-)
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YouMustBeJoking
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2006 09:10
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All programs on the EIPC site contain spyware/toolbar trackers. Wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. Shouldn't be here.
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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2006 03:51 - Edited by: FHteam
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I'm not sure if the programs contained these toolbars when we first starting listing them a month ago, nobody has reported anything.
There is NO spyware & nothing is hidden!
You are offered the "RelevantKnowledge" toolbar - you can decline to install it.
You are also offered the "Delio Comparison Shopping Toolbar" for IE ONLY! that Softpedia warrants as clean & you can uninstall cleanly immediately after installing the EPIC program.
This whole subject now gives us real problems - wonderful programs like IrfanView & near-essential programs like Java offer to install Google search, Google Desktop, etc. These programs are NOT hiding the installation, most times you can simply decline the add-on or uninstall it cleanly later.
Sites like Softpedia are saying these add-ons are NOT spyware anyway so what do we do?!?!?
Right now I will add a link to this discussion to these listings & see what the consensus of opinion says ;)
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derelict
Member
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2006 08:20
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Well, I also feel that this program is clearly installing spyware on my machine. The ReleventKnowledge thing is tolerable, since I can decline to install it. However, the Delia garbage I cannot decline!! Sure, it assures me that I can delete it later, which is the same assurance that all spyware gives... so exactly why is it forcing me to install it, if I'm just going to remove it later?? I have to assume that there's some part of it that won't be uninstalled...
I'm sorry, FHTeam, but it's just NOT freeware.
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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2006 16:56
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From the user's point of view I agree with you derelict although I do believe Softpedia when they say the Delia Tool bar is clean & I *know* it uninstalls cleanly.
There's a reason why some of these add-ons can be declined & others can't - it's all about who is adding the extras (the program author or the program distributor) & what they get paid for! Most of the time they get paid for an install, doesn't matter if it's uninstalled immediately, some won't be & Delia et al "play the percentages" here.
I also have to look at it from the author's point of view which is exactly the same as ours when we run ads like the "Recommended download" at the top of this page - it's called "keep the site/program/service free but earn some money to support it ;)
The EIPC (Egyptian International Programming Center) programs aren't authored by EIPC, they're distributed by them. I'm going to try to find out more about *who* is adding these extras, *who* is benefiting from them & *who* the program authors are.
I well remember what happened to the author of ToniArts EasyCleaner - the distributer gave him a free website, registered & paid for his domain name & then added all kinds of *real & nasty* spyware to his programs without his knowledge!
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derelict
Member
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2006 21:59 - Edited by: derelict
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Well, let me describe my view this way:
I don't consider adware to be freeware. I went back and looked at your website description, and you don't specifically say "adware is not freeware", so I can't argue that the programs should not be here (though I'd like to!!).
However, I don't install adware on my machine. I'll use shareware in many cases (4NT, Examdiff Pro, CRT, and many other examples come to mind), but I won't install adware at all. First of all, I can't really tell which adware is spyware; second of all, adware is basically nagware in which the nag window is always present!!
Given that, I would be grateful if you could indicate somehow on the program entry that a program is adware (which is similar to what SoftPedia and SnapFiles do), then I can just avoid such programs without having to go through the rather aggravating experience that I went through with the program that I downloaded this morning.
Having said that, I understand that there's only one of you, and you'll likely only know about adware when a user reports it, but that would still give everyone else a warning... Is this a tolerable compromise??
( Later edit:
... and I *do* hope we get some other comments on this discussion!!! )
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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2006 00:54
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derelict *I* don't trust adware any more than you do!
That's an open & shut case - I don't need to warn about it, I won't list it.
If I get caught, (which I do occasionally <sigh>) or someone finds an old listing I don't know about, I will remove the listing as soon as I'm told about it.
BUT
The definition of *adware* is a program that displays ads while it is running & periodically accesses the Internet for more ads &/or reports back to its parent site. If you use the program you can't avoid seeing the ads, period. One fairly well known example of this is Incredimail.
We're not discussing adware here though & therein lies the problem ;)
What we are talking about now is "add-ons", usually browser toolbars, (frequently Internet Explorer *only* toolbars) & browser helper objects. They're NOT integrated into the main program you've downloaded in any way. They install separately & have an entirely different function to purely running ads or reporting on surfing habits.
Of course there are bad ones & good ones & lots in between. Many people will install these 'helpers' from choice, the Delio Toolbar provides links for comparison shopping, the Google Toolbar provides quick links to Google search etc. etc. The spyware detector programs, such as SDpyBot or Ad-aware will warn about the suspect ones & also remove them. Unlike program integrated adware/spyware, BHOs are relatively easy to remove.
If a program install allows you to decline the add on I'm inclined to say that's acceptable. If it *insists* on you installing something that's NOT acceptable.
And so to the EIPC programs in particular:
Quoting: YouMustBeJoking All programs on the site contain spyware/toolbar trackers.
YouMustBeJoking you are wrong! I've checked out several of their programs - some contain nothing, some contain add ons that can be declined, some contain add ons that have to be installed.
I have removed all of the listings that I *know* contain add ons that cannot be declined. If I've missed any please let me know ;)
Dee
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derelict
Member
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2006 10:52 - Edited by: derelict
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That's very cool to me. If the Delia tools could have been declined, I would never have commented at all, I would have just declined and been done with it.
And I'm sorry this issue had to come up during the holiday season and cast a cloud over it for you.
Happy holidays, Dee and FHteam!!
derelict
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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2006 00:37
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Don't apologize derelict if it hadn't been this time of year I might not have been caught by this. I'm usually very suspicious of screensavers, they're such a magnet for this kind of rubbish!
The annoying thing is that I had downloaded a screensaver for myself but hadn't installed it because the hard drive on the shiny new system Santa brought me died the second time I booted it up!!!!!!!
Ah well, these things happen :)
Happy New Year everyone, let's hope it's a good one.
Dee
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akatengu
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2007 17:28
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Geez... Reasonable people. What a pleasure to find cool, rational, intelligent conversation on an internet forum. As I read through this thread, I began to mentally prepare my own two cents worth, essentially falling in with Derelict on the issue. Dee... you took the wind out of my sails... and brightened my day. :-) My hat's off to both of you... and have a great day.
Oh... and... Great Web Site! I've found so many useful... and solid... programs here. Dee... you're doing a great job! Thank you!
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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2007 18:09
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Thank you akatengu all compliments gratefully received :)
I do my best to make sure the "face" of Freeware Home has the same high standard that Eugene sets "behind the scenes" ;)
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PapaSmurf
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2007 21:48
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Ok, for me it is very simple.
Freeware is not..FREE. By it's nature freeware is designed to advertise some other product, or in some cases the "freeware" is a limited version of the product. Examples would be ZoneAlarm free firewall and AVG free anti-virus.
Everytime you download something from the net that you plan on installing, you have a choice. Either install or not. Nobody is twisting your arm to install it.
But, if it is something you really want, and you do not wish to pay any money for it, then you should expect some advertisement contained with in it.
Again, nobody is twisting your arm to install it. For those of you with complaints, I say this: STOP DOWNLOADING FREEWARE. On the other hand, if you really do want some kewl files, and viewing other products does not scare you, then continue to enjoy the freeware offerings.
"Nothing in life is free."
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ltkeng
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2007 23:23
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I gotta put my 2¢ in here. I took a look at the screensaver (Autumn Leaves) and was appalled at the adware. I NEVER EVER install adware on my systems. Nor do I install shareware or any other kind of crapware.
To quote a very good friend of mine...
"Simply put, [freeware is] software that demands no fees, is not a trial, it also does not have all of it's functions 'crippled', is not a demo, nor does it contain any adware, spyware or any intrusive malware of any type." - Scott (freewarearena.com)
FHteam - shame on you for putting adware on this site and calling it free.
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OldTabby
Member
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2007 02:09
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ltkeng
The accepted definition of adware is a program that INSTALLS some kind of advertising & displays it when the program is used.
NONE I repeat NONE of the adware OFFERED by the Acez screensavers gets *installed* unless YOU *allow* it!! You have a CHOICE to DECLINE all of it & NOTHING, not even a link to the Acez website, appears when the screensaver runs.
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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2007 13:32
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PapaSmurf
That's a very cynical point of view & it isn't correct. TRUE Freeware is NOT designed to advertise ANYTHING!
Wikipedia says...
Freeware is copyrighted computer software which is made available for use free of charge, for an unlimited time. Authors of freeware often want to "give something to the community", but also want credit for their software and to retain control of its future development.
Admittedly *commercial* programs, such as the 2 you mention, often produce a free version as a showcase for their pay version BUT the free version is usually good enough for most people. Personally I use the free version of AVG, & it's NEVER let me down. I don't need & wouldn't use the additional features of the paid version.
We list HUNDREDS of TRULY free programs, not an ad or a paid version in sight, not to mention all of the Open Source programs. You've obviously never looked at programs like the totally free alternative to MS Office - OpenOffice.org
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FHteam
Admin
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2007 15:17
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Before you call me out over a listing ltkeng PLEASE get your FACTS right!! Autumn Leaves screensaver is NOT adware - it OFFERS you adware but it does NOT INSTALL it unless you SPECIFICALLY CHOOSE to click the "Accept" button.
The install isn't checked by default like most are & also the website download page tells you up front what is included!! For those who actually read instead of blindly clicking, this one won't catch even the newest newbie!
Let me repeat again - I have been caught once too often by screensavers. I now download & install them before I list them. They are clean *at the time of listing*.
Yes I know Scott & his definition of freeware, you may not want to believe it but my definition is the same! You also may not want to believe that we BOTH list the following programs that probably don't meet with *your* approval:
ImageForge Freeware Edition - it has 16 of 38 features unavailable in the free version. That's borderline crippleware in my book, we listed it in 2003, if it was submitted today I wouldn't list it.
IrfanView - one of the programs I mentioned at the start of this topic because it now includes an install for Google Toolbar which BTW is *checked* by default!
WinPatrol - it's an excellent program BUT the PLUS (paid) version is so much more useful it's a no-brainer to buy it.
Finally, Scott lists "ksLogger" *I* do not. It's a keylogger, *we* regard keyloggers as spyware.
My real point here is that NO 2 sites are alike which is why we all survive. As always, it's YOUR choice which sites you visit. ;)
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PapaSmurf
Member
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2007 22:01 - Edited by: PapaSmurf
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FHteam
I am sorry you find simple logic cynical.
If you would have taken a moment to understand the meaning of the post, you would have seen that I happen to like the freeware offerings.
However, I must take a pause when I am confronted with definitions for items that are fluid, that is to say constantly changing. I stand by my definition of freeware.
Authors of freeware often want to "give something to the community", but also want credit for their software and to retain control of its future development.
To use this definition you have provided, authors wish to retain control in the hopes that sometime in the future thier hard work will pay off. This is NOT unreasonable, I happen to think that people deserve to be paid for their work.
Open source code is different. Typicaly, this is more of a community involved project, with serveral improvements being developed by more than just a single author. As such, open source codes are liable to change considerably all the time as new code is introduced. I prefer to think of these code projects as works in progress, while a freeware file should be a complete set up, with possible revisions as time goes on. But the freeware files are not usually open sourced.
One last note, I too use AVG free version, so do many of my friends in the technical community. I also use a free version software firewall.
Now, to the rest of the folks I say this: If you like discovering freeware alternatives that work very well, then by all means please look thu the list offered by this team of people. It is one of the BEST lists of freeware I have seen.
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Puter-Nut
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# Posted: 23 Apr 2009 23:13
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Bottom Line, If vendors insist on adding these extras during setup, they should all default "UNCHECKED"; currently they are all Checked so that they will be installed often by those unaware. ~tl
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